Re: Hitler controversy (memetics)

From: jagannath chatterjee
Date: Tue, Sep 16, 2008 at 9:44 AM
Subject: Re: [brahmoconferenceorg] Re: Hitler controversy
To: brahmoconferenceorg@yahoogroups.com

Dear Peter

There are no factions within the Brahmo Samaj for the reason that all of True Brahmoism is united by memetic ties. After expelling the quisling elements in 1866, Brahmoism embarked on a decade of radical evolution under Hemendranath Tagore, who was then at the peak of his spiritual powers. Memetics, or the sharing of ancestral memories via the bloodline, is at the core of modern Brahmoism, as it has been the core of Hinduism's caste system. In about 1862 the Brahmo seer Hemendranath, then in his late teens, was studying medical science, and conducted an experiment where lower life cellular forms were taught a problem. These life forms were then fed to the next generation of life forms who could solve the problem without being exposed to it. Thus proving that information /memory is capable of transmission from generation to generation. From this flows a core Adi Dharm postulation "All life exists to be consumed".

True Brahmoism today is memetics in action. False Brahmos are excluded, although Keshub Chunder Sen's family tried desperately to capture Debendranath Tagore's memes by getting one of his grand-daughters married to Tagore's grandson (and for which Rabindranath Tagore disentitled his sister).

Jagannath Chatterjee

>Re: [brahmoconferenceorg] Re: Fwd: Hitler controversy
>

>Dear Saurav and all,
>
>I don't know if it would ever be possible for a non-Brahmo to sort out the factions within the Samaj, or understand why some people do not believe that there are factions at all.  In my personal life I do not participate in gossip and backbiting as I feel that those activities truly rot the soul.  So if anyone on the Brahmo lists tries to get me to take sides based on differences I couldn't possibly fathom, or on >assessments of the characters of others I do not know, know that I could not do that.
>
>I have made my point about not being able to abide Hitler-sympathizers.  As I'm not sure why one of Hitler's comments was included in an attachment to a post to brahmoconference@yahoogroups.com, I'm going to give the sender the benefit of the doubt.  If that or something similar happens again I'll know it was not by chance and I will remove myself from the offending group.
>
>Sincerely
>Peter

Hitler controversy

From: Saurav Brahmo
Date: Mon, Sep 15, 2008 at 9:10 AM
Subject: [brahmoconferenceorg] Re: Hitler controversy
To: brahmoconferenceorg@yahoogroups.com

Dear Peter

As you would have figured out by now there are 2 kinds of Brahmos- "True Brahmos" and "False Brahmos"

This Yahoo group is for "True Brahmos"- of the Adi-ite tradition. We believe that that there is only "One God"

The other Yahoo group (from where the "great thoughts" of Hitler are being circulated) are "False Brahmos of the Keshub-ite variety. They believe that there is only "One TRUE God" and their devilish doctrines revolve around Masonic dogma like the "Fatherhood of God" and "Brotherhood of Man"

By 1866 the False Brahmos (and their leaders) were finally expelled from Brahmoism by Maharshi Hemendranath Tagore but regrettably they still continue to preach their pernicious devilish message in the name of Brahmoism. Even today on that other false Yahoo group we find great love and affection for Hitler and his "great thoughts". What greater proof of this can there be than message number 666 (Satan's number) of
that group.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/brahmoconference/message/666

and it's statement "But don't we sometimes need to sup with the devil if need be & give the devil it's due when it is justified ?"

You may be assured that True Brahmos would never support (or express admiration for) engineers of genocide, and concepts such as "unter-menschen" are specifically prohibited in our religion.

In Truth
Saurav

Founder of Brahmo Samaj

From: Rahul Dev Sharma

Subject: [brahmoconferenceorg] Founder of Brahmo Samaj (Blog Post)
To: brahmoconferenceorg@yahoogroups.com

Here is some interesting information from a Brahmo Samaj Blog on the internet at
http://brahmosamaj.wordpress.com/

Brahmo Samaj, a primer.

Posted by brahmosamaj on August 12, 2008

Q: What is the Brahmo Samaj ?

A: The Brahmo Samaj is the social order (Samaj = "community") of the Brahmo religion.

Q: Who founded the Brahmo Samaj ?

A: The Brahmo Samaj was founded at Lahore in 1861 by Navin Chandra Roy to propagate the Brahmo religion.

Q: Who founded the Brahmo religion ?

A: The Brahmo religion was founded in 1849 at Calcutta by Debendranath Tagore with the publication of "Brahmo Dharma".

Q: Excuse me, but I thought Raja Ram Mohan Roy founded the Brahmo Samaj ?

A: Not really. Ram Mohan Roy started the Brahma Sabha (Association of Brahmins) along with Dwarkanath Tagore in 1828. The objectives of this association were to publicize the true Vedanta which had been corrupted by Buddhist and Brahmanical influences. The Sabha met every Wednesday at Kamal Basu's house in Chitpur and later moved to their own premises at Chitpur Road in 1830 (purchased by the munificence Dwarkanath Tagore) . After the death of Ram Mohan Roy in 1833, the Sabha became moribund

Q: But, were these Chitpur premises of 1830 not the Adi Brahmo Samaj ?

A: It is correct that the present Adi Brahmo Samaj premises are situated at the same 1830 location. However, the Adi Brahmo Samaj is only the name given by the common people to the Calcutta Brahmo Samaj when Keshub Chunder Sen and a few of his sympathisers were expelled from it.

Q:  So,  if the Calcutta Brahmo Samaj is the same as Adi Brahmo Samaj, when was it founded ?

A:  The Calcutta Brahmo Samaj was so named in 1863, when after a cyclone the Chitpur Road premises were affected and Brahma Sabha (previously amalgamated with Tattwabodhini Sabha)  was shifted to the Jorasako Thakur bari.

Re: Questions about Brahmoism

From: Rahul Dev Sharma <rahul.dv..@..>
Subject: Re: [brahmoconferenceorg] Questions about Brahmoism
To: brahmoconferenceorg@yahoogroups.com

Dear Suhrud

Answers to some of your (very intelligent) questions. The difficult ones will take sometime.

1)  Brahmoism is a religion. The philosophy behind Brahmoism is "Brahmo Dharma". Any person who believes that there is only one infinite "God" can "follow" Brahmoism by subscribing to membership of a "Brahmo Samaj" while retaining their own religion.

2) Brahmoism was never a "proselytizing religion". Like all the great Asian religions, we sit on the seashore (or a Himalayan mountain or the Internet) and wait for truthseekers to seek us out. "Conversion" is discretionary (there are no fixed rituals for conversion in any case) and more in the nature of "acceptance" of Brahmoism. In the early days of Brahmoism a few people were admitted as members who
caused immense trouble to our religion and gave it a bad name, after their expulsion in 1866 True Brahmoism has had no apostasy in its ranks.

4) Brahmoism is the religion. Brahmo Samaj is the larger community which "follows" Brahmoism while possibly retaining their old religions. It is incorrect that Brahmoism is hereditary, there is a debate about genetics and memetics which has not been properly understood by one faction here. Genetics and Memetics simply reinforce the shared collective identity for Brahmoism (as in all religions).

5) Brahmos believe that "truth" is contained everywhere. However, we also believe that no revelation, prophet or holy book is infallible or to be considered as authority. Brahmoism lays great stress on the powers of an enlightened conscience to know & distinguish True from False and to act appropriately.

5.1) We neither accept nor reject these books. We accept as fact these these books exist and consider it likely that these books are human creation (as much as "God" is a human creation).

5.2)  Yes. Brahmoism rejects apostles, prophets or incarnations as concepts contrary to the principles of Brahmoism. By our Trust principles we are forbidden to disparage other religions or particpate in communal anger. This has led to a concept of the Brahmo "lie" where
although a Brahmo shall not lie he is not bound to tell the truth either. (eg.Q: Do you know where the nearest liqour shop is ? A:Yes. Q: Can you show me the way there? A:Yes (but I wont))

6) There are no prescribed Brahmo rituals. All that is required is for Brahmos to worship and adore the Supreme Spirit regularly (and at least once a week). Some do this by meditation, some by good works. True Brahmo religionists compose their mind daily on the 9 principles of Adi Dharm and reinforce their connection to God

8) There are no Schisms in Brahmoism. In 1865 and 1866 some apostates were expelled for spreading unacceptable Christian doctrines in the garb of Brahmoism. From 1878-1882 many of them were readmitted back into Adi Dharm with the formation of Sadharan Brahmo Samaj.

9) Brahmoism stands on the foundations of the work of Ram Mohan Roy and Dwarkanath Tagore - this stage of the religion was known as "Brahma Sabha". The superstructure was thereafter erected by Debendranath Tagore, Akshoy Kr. Dutta, Ishwar Chandra Vidyasagar, Ajudyanath Pakrashi and many others. In 1862 the Brahmo Samaj organisation was founded by Pt Nabin Ch. Rai at Lahore. Thereafter, the final shape to Brahmoism's philosophy was given by Hemendranath Tagore. Sen was never a Brahmo, he was born a Hindu and died a Christian, being many things on the path between.

10) No Brahmo would seek to convince anyone to convert to Brahmoism. Usually people who reach Brahmoism do so by their own path.

Rahul

Questions about Brahmoism

From: suhrud_s <suhrud...@yah...>
Subject: [brahmoconferenceorg] Questions about Brahmoism
To: brahmoconferenceorg@yahoogroups.com

Hello,

I have recently been permitted into the Brahmo Conference Group.

Thank you.

Going through the recent messages, I understand this group has among its members, many learned individuals, and I appreciate the opportunity to be included in this group.

I have put forward some questions about Brahmoism and I would appreciate any answers you might be able to give me. These questions are as those of a layman from a different faith. Perhaps these questions and answers could help other newbies like me.

1. Is Brahmoism a religion or a philosophy? Can one adopt Brahmoism whilst retaining one's current faith.

2. Related question - Is Brahmoism a proselytizing religion? Can someone "convert" to Brahmoism? Likewise, is there a concept of apostasy?

3. What is the concept of God in Brahmoism? How different is the Brahmo concept of God from the monotheistic Judaic or Islamic concept of Yahweh or Allah. How different is it from the Hindu concept of God in the form of Shiva or Vishnu? [It is perfectly possible to worship Vishnu or Shiva without worshipping an idol made in his assumed likeness.]

4. How different is Brahmoism from the Brahmo Samaj? Also, I read somewhere that Brahmoism can only be acquired through heredity, while the Brahmo Samaj is open to all and sundry. Is that correct?

5. Do Brahmos disbelieve in the divinity of all revelations, prophets and holy books?

5.1 Do they reject the Quran, the Gospels, the Torah, the Vedas and the Guru Granth Sahib as merely human creation?

5.2 Do Brahmos reject Rama, Krishna, Noah, Abraham, Moses, Gautama Buddha, Zoroaster, Guru Nanak and Baha'ullah as prophets or incarnations of God?

[If the answer to 5.1 or 5.2 is yes (i.e. reject prophets and books), then is Brahmoism not exposing itself to communal anger from other faiths?]

6. Do Brahmos have any rituals? Are there any prescribed methods of worship or prayer in Brahmoism? As in other religions, adherents pray standing up, prostrating, kneeling down, chanting hymns around a sacrificial fire, or simply contemplating about God?

7. What is the approximate number of adherents of Brahmoism in the world today? Where do they meet? Is there a central authority, like a church? Where is it?

8. There have been some schisms in Brahmoism. Which is the one that is most relevant to the original teachings?

9. I often read that Brahmoism was an attempt at reformation of the Hindu religion in the 1800's by intellectuals like Roy and Sen? Is it just a reformation or a new religion in its own right?

10. How would a Brahmo convince a Hindu, a Christian, a Muslim or a Buddhist to accept Brahmoism?

My apologies if I might sound irreverent in my questions. I am only trying to understand the Brahmo faith.

Thank you
Suhrud Bapat

Sadharan Brahmo Samaj (Founding principles)

From: Saurav Brahmo <saurav@m...>
Subject: Re: [brahmoconferenceorg] Re: Basic Tenets Of Brahmo Dharma
To: brahmoconferenceorg@yahoogroups.com

Dear Rahul and Biswajit.

Actually there is less difference between the Sadharan Samaj and Adi Samaj than is being depicted. The issue is that the Sadharan Samaj has strayed far and wide from their original goals of the first decade(1877-1885).  If we hark back to the founding principles of Sadharan Brahmo Samaj we hardly find anything objectionable to us.

Founding principles of Sadharan Samaj

• that faith in a Supreme Being and in Existence after Death is natural to man ;
• that we regard the relation between God and men to be direct and immediate ;
• that we do not believe in the infallibility of any man or any scripture ;
• whatever book contains truths calculated to ennoble the soul or elevate the character is a Brahmo's scripture, and whoever teaches such truths is his teacher and guide.
• We regard the fourfold culture of man's intellect, conscience, affections, and devotion as equally important and equally necessary for his salvation.
• We consider love of God and doing the will of God as equally imperative in the routine of a Brahmo's life.
• We regard the culture of faith at the sacrifice of reason, or the culture of reason at the sacrifice of faith as equally defective, and as fruitful sources of evil in the religious world.
• We regard the worship of one God as the highest of a Brahmo's duties and as the best of means to improve the soul and the neglect of it as a way to spiritual death.
• We look upon the enjoyment of uncontrolled authority by a single individual in any religious community as a calamity, and far from looking upon freedom of thought as reprehensible, we consider it to be desirable, and regard it as a safe-guard against corruption and degeneracy.
• We regard the belief in an individual being a way to salvation, or a link between God and Man, as a belief unworthy of a Theist, and those who hold such belief as unworthy of the Brahmo name.
• We consider it to be blasphemy and an insult to the Majesty of Heaven to claim Divine inspiration for any act opposed to the dictates of reason, truth, and morality.

In Truth
Saurav

Re: Basic Tenets Of Brahmo Dharma

Subject: Re: [brahmoconferenceorg] Re: Basic Tenets Of Brahmo Dharma

To: brahmoconferenceorg@yahoogroups.com

At the risk of incurring the not inconsiderable displeasure of JC & Co. who have eloquently listed out many differences between the 2 Brahmo Samajes, I would also like to list out the points on which we agree.

1.ONE GOD. ie. a Singular Author and Preserver of Existence

2. Brahmos reject scripture as authority.

3. Brahmos reject prophets, gurus, messiahs, or avatars.

4. Brahmos denounce idol worship and polytheism

5. Brahmos are against distinctions like caste

Beyond this it would be very difficult to generate consensus between Adi'ism and Sadharn'ism.

Rahul

Re: Basic Tenets Of Brahmo Dharma

Subject: [brahmoconferenceorg] Re: Basic Tenets Of Brahmo Dharma

Dear All;

Just some updates to Mr Dutta's message below from the Indian Messenger. Brahmo Dharma has been revised considerably from Maharshi Debendranath's time and the Indian Messenger (and its  Samaj faction) are still to get the "True" message. The heart of Brahmo Dharma shall always be the Adi Brahmo Trust Principles of 1830 and not what a
Sadharan Samaj mouthpiece proclaims to be Brahmo Dharma..

Point wise clarification:-

1) Modern ("True") Brahmoism no longer uses the term "Supreme Being". The preferred term now is "Singularity". With some better knowledge of cosmology we no longer equate Singularity with "He" but as "It" and do not attribute petty human characteristics such as all "knowing / powerful / perfect" etc to It.

2) Caste per se is not interdicted. It is an essential part of
Brahmoism. DISTINCTION is interdicted hence Caste SYSTEMS are interdicted, or to be more precise - Distinctions based on caste systems are not acknowledged. IDOLATION is interdicted - this is the core of Brahmoism; spurious Samajes like Sammilan Samaj where Rammohun's bust is installed for worship are forcefully denounced.

3) Point 3 is of Adi Brahmo Samaj is also retained by Sadharan Samaj.

4) Point 4 is rejected by Adi Brahmos. Fixed Institutions and
organisation sap the vitality and spirit of the religion.

5) Poiint 5, No scripture is authority. Truth is infinite and
incapable of being set down

6) Point 6 corresponds in its essence to Adi Brahmo articles rejecting revelations, prophets, gurus, messiahs, or avatars etc. as authority.

7) Point 7 is contradicted and nonsense. True Brahmos reject the need for formal rituals, priests or places (church, temple, mosque etc) for worship.

JC

Basic Tenets Of Brahmo Dharma

Subject: [brahmoconferenceorg] Basic Tenets Of Brahmo Dharma

To: brahmoconferenceorg@yahoogroups.com

Basic Tenets of Brahmo Dharma

1) The faith that the Supreme Being(God Almighty) alone was in the beginning , nothing else existed . He created all this universe . He is eternal , infinite , all merciful , independent , formless , one without a second , all pervading , ruling all over , all containing , all knowing , all powerful , the permanent , the perfect , the one beyond any comparison . In his worship alone lies our welfare in this world & in the world to come . To love him & to do what he loves is his worship .

2) A Brahmo will never worship any created object as representing that Supreme Being(idolatry in any form is discarded) & never believes in caste division(caste system is interdicted) .

3) A Brahmo , unless incapacitated by illness or other calamity , shall daily compose his soul , in love & trust , in the Supreme Being , & he should strive for the performance of good deeds & for keeping away from evil . If by chance , he commits any evil , he should truly repent for it , & desist from the path of evil .

4) He should contribute something every year for the furtherance of the work of the Brahmo Samaj .

5) Neither the Vedas , nor any other scripture of any religion are considered infallible by Brahmo Dharma . It welcomes truth from all sources .

6) Brahmo Dharma does not recognize any priestly class or any guru or prophet as mediator between God & man or as God's representative .

7) Brahmo Dharma has its own prayer hall & its own simple rituals for social & family occasions .

- From "The Indian Messenger" , May 7 & 21 , 2008

N.B. – The Indian Messenger is the official mouthpiece of The Sadharan Brahmo Samaj .

Regards,
Biswajit Dutta